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Premium Member
2001 A.W. L
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Have not talked to zephyr yet I was just relayed he may come down for this, but in the meantime I can try to contact him and billy to see what they say or try to get it over there for a second opinion before I have to start teaching again on sept 3.
I'd do both before proceeding with the 25D. If anything at least get a second opinion.
 

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2000 Impreza 2.5RS BRP
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3,555 Posts
If sorting it out is putting it in and it runs then great
You just solved your own issue for yourself. Try the motor before hacking up your car's wiring harness, its emissions passing capability, and it's resale value throwing an EJ25D (which is less reliable on the whole than the EJ251 due to the head gaskets). You are trying to do everything backwards.
 

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2000 Impreza 2.5RS BRP
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Anyway we don't need to make this worse I am trying to be diplomatic and keep things factual. I know my participation is relatively low here but I do have 100% positive and have plenty rep on other forums which is why I am trying to respect you as much as possible. I get no benefit to anything if I don't get my car running, end of story, I'm not lying or scamming anything.
Outside of Pat, I don't think anyone believes you to be scamming or anything, but your sequence of decisions is incredibly confusing and I can understand why he thinks you're just trying to get money out of him. Seriously, get a second opinion before having your car hacked up by this shop. From the multiple witnesses that saw that motor running, the shop your car is currently at must be doing something wrong.

Honestly, I'd rather foot the bill for having the motor put in and find out it was garbage than go to all this other work screwing my car up further and be left with that nagging question of what if the engine did work.
 

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99rs silver
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26 Posts
Discussion Starter #65
Thank you chuck, I will try for the second opinion. I doubt my shop is messing up here but it's always a possibility so let's see what someone else says, should I do the leaktest again as the second opinion?

I found the video cory was talking about comp testing it off the car, you just need a battery and a starter.
how to do a compression test with motor out side the car - YouTube
 

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99rs silver
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Discussion Starter #67
Running could also not be 100% though, right? OP did anyone test this motor when it was on the car or was it just seen by the witnesses as 'running'? Is it possible something happened upon removal? Not accusing, just asking.
 

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Premium Member
2001 A.W. L
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13,249 Posts
I will try and explain why you are getting the reaction you are here.

First, you appear not to have a deep knowledge of cars, which is totally fine we all had to start somewhere. It was very apparent when you made your first statements (again its ok)

Second, no one here has heard good or bad about this shop. I'd assume they are relatively new to the subaru enthusiast ecosystem. And SOOOOO many of us had had very bad experiences or read about bad experiences with so call race shops. So we are extremely skeptical to just take any one shops opinion.

Third, wanting to put a EJ25D in your car just seems silly for a shop to suggest. Its a lot of work for no gain and probably more headaches than it is worth. Now if you bought the car and told them hey make this work I am paying, and they did their due diligence telling you it was a mistake, then the onus is on you.
 

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99rs silver
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26 Posts
Discussion Starter #71
I understand that completely too. I never claimed to be a master mechanic just want to get running and it was hard to go against the shops recommendation and say yea just throw it in. At this point I'm not really wanting to put more money into this motor if it's bad which is what I said from the start.

If everyone really thinks I should get a second opinion then I will and if that comes back good I guess we have our solution. I know so many things can go wrong and shops can be wrong too but I just have a hard time believing billy will say sure this motor is totally fine lets put it in. The swap price for this labor is not bad where I'm at too, its just when it comes to this point with these variables... prices can escalate quick as you are well aware.
 

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2001 A.W. L
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One more thing to add as an FYI. Since the motor you bought is off a 00 and you have a 99 you'd want to take the intake manifold off your cars motor and put it on this one (or anyone that is newer), there are slight differences between the two. So dont throw out your old motor before grabbing that!
 

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'MURRICA!
Hybrid Camry
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5,700 Posts
If it were me, I'd have it in and running the day I got it back (It only takes about 4 hours to throw one in and start it up, and 30 minutes to take the old one out).

That being said, if I were you, I probably would have gotten a second opinion by now. I'd be like "Look, I'm already out $600, what's another $20 to have someone else check it?"

Too many times I've seen friends get stuck at a shop that "Was recommended by xx" or "I've gone there before" or "It got great reviews!" Actually, just a couple weeks ago I had a friend text me "Hey, this shop says it's going to be $2000 for them to do my brakes, that seems a little bit high, are they right?"

"Run dude. Brakes, on the high side, would be about $500 for all of them"

It happens all the time, which is why we're questioning the shop. Hell, even in your video they're rotating the motor during a leakdown test. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK. Of COURSE you'll have leakdown when the valves are open! But from an internet perspective, there's not a lot *we* can do to help you.

Other than recommend that you get out of this "Oh this shop is so the fucking bomb and they know everything because they tune race cars." slump that you're in.

If it's bad, then oh well, at least you *know* it's bad, and it's double verified. If it comes back as good, you've saved yourself a LOT more headaches now and in the future by choosing someone more qualified.

But I'm not you. And what you'll probably end up doing is trusting the shop (who apparently doesn't have an electrical guy) and paying a lot for a relatively cheap job. Then you'll be stuck with a car that isn't *quite* stock, and has some minor issues (all swaps do).

I wish you the best, and I fully understand where you're coming from with attempting to get money back. But at the end of the day you bought a used part.

AND NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE DAMN SNAKES. "OMG it's wildlife!" yeah, but unless they did some crazy ass scifi-metal-eating-snake-shit, snakes won't harm anything.
 

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99rs silver
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Discussion Starter #74
Thanks for the heads up everyone I really do appreciate everything even negatives to questioning the shop and right, 'you/we' is the internet so it's a little hard for me to go between this and real life with what's fact and what's hearsay. Yes the joke was made that out of all three motors we can build one good one! He's rotating to show no points hit compression with leakdown. Same as the guy does in the video a few posts back by hand with his timing not hooked up.

I'm not worried about the snakes just want a running motor. Obviously if I don't have to hack wiring I would like not to but we have the whole donor car and two other motors so we should have a plethora of parts to pick from. I'll ask him to bring both motors back inside to hold onto.
 

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2001 D2 A8L
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929 Posts
I think you should just pull the heads at this point. Then you can confirm what is actually going on. Plus, the head gaskets have never been done, and at that mileage it is something that should be done preventatively.

I didn't see numbers for a compression check, but just so you know: a compression check should be done on a warm motor with the throttle wide open. If those numbers were low, I wouldn't worry about it as long as they are close to one another.

JavaBot, you can trust the members on this board more than most mechanics. We are a community, they are individuals out to make some money.
 

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2000 Impreza 2.5RS BRP
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One more thing to add as an FYI. Since the motor you bought is off a 00 and you have a 99 you'd want to take the intake manifold off your cars motor and put it on this one (or anyone that is newer), there are slight differences between the two. So dont throw out your old motor before grabbing that!
I'll make note of this again in case you missed it. Wherever you take your car to have the motor swapped, make sure you bring both motors to have as smooth a swap as possible. They will need parts from your old motor.

Running could also not be 100% though, right? OP did anyone test this motor when it was on the car or was it just seen by the witnesses as 'running'? Is it possible something happened upon removal? Not accusing, just asking.
With an EJ251, it's pretty rare for things to not be close to 100% if something isn't catastrophically wrong. Typically, what fails on them is the head gaskets and rod bearings. Rod bearing failure is a nasty knocking sound that doesn't qualify the engine as running, and head gasket failure is overheating, which if Pat drove the car for an hour back from the purchase, is also unlikely.

Pat's sold several working motors before and knows how to treat them. If nothing notable happened between picking it up from him and where it is now, nothing had likely changed. This is why everyone is questioning the legitimacy of these tests. If you're being honest and Pat's being honest, the only other possible explanation is that your shop doesn't know what it's doing.

Also, Javabot, with this new thread, you are technically now the OP :)

Also, what failed on your original motor?
 

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Dirty Whore
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790 Posts
I was about to ask the same thing, what exactly happened to ur prior motor. You have said before you dont know much about the procedure of these motors. But, if u indeed have the motor out. Wouldn't it have been smarter to take it apart, and replace all gaskets and seals, at the same time inspect the motor while at it?

Ive done tons of work on the majority of the subarus down here in south florida. The shop should have recommended this once the motor arrived. Not only would have been the logical thing but also benefit the shop and yourself at the same time. Taking apart that motor is cake, if valves were bad you can either swap em from ur motor or just buy new ones, thier cheap.

This is why i question the shop.
 

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2000 brp 2.0rs
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So ive thought about this for the last few days, i really have not have time to sit down and type out a lengthy response but now i have a few moments so i will. Im going to start out with a story that has happened to me in the past. Then were going to try to agree on some things here.

Story-
Back in 2011 i bought my car, it had blown headgaskets and i knew nothing about subarus. I drove the car home from PA, over 9hours, on blown head gaskets, I decided i was going to swap my car, i started reading up on how to do so. worked my ass off all summer to save for a swap. In august i bought a "complete" swap for 2800.00 , 200.00 paypal deposit and the rest in cash from some guy in Ct, a 6 hour drive away. I didnt really know much about what i was buying, lightly looked over what i bought and threw it in the truck. I got all the parts home, started looking it over and realized i was missing about 500.00 worth of stuff and the motor was leaking alot of oil. I took the motor apart to find a cracked head, and all spark plug ports were cracked and rusted valves. I called the person i bought the parts off of, He answered, i told him who i was and he hung up. I called again, the number was disconnected, He used a track phone and ditched the phone. I was basically screwed. I contacted paypal, I tried to get my 200.00 deposit back, Paypal took over 6 months to tell me that i bought used parts, with no warranty and no promises. Now this is where i had a choice, did i drive all the way back down to CT and confront him to get nowhere. Or cut my losses and finish my project. I cut my losses, I learned from my mistake, and finished my swap. i took the head to a machine shop, they cleaned them, and told me the crack was too bad, I found another set of heads, got them cleaned and put them on, good to go. I was out an extra 300.00 from the end of it. From that day i told my self i would never do that to anyone, even if the problem was my fault. I am honest with every sale, For instance, i sold a motor a few months ago that i knew had bad headgaskets and a leaky oil pan, i could have cleaned the pan and called it a day, no, i sold the motor to a forum member very cheap and he rebuilt it. Im not hear to make a fortune, Im not here to screw people over. You can look at all my past sales, most of my parts sell for 1/2 of what they usually sell for, they get shipped in a reasonable time, and always are in great shape. If i have a part that i dont think will sell or that i know is damaged i either junk it or give it away. multiple forum members have been to my house and i have given away hundreds of parts.

Now we come to this situation, I have a garage,a lift, storage space, an engine crane, two engine stands and lots of tools. I bought the parts car because my girlfriends car needed alot of parts, the motor was not needed. As stated in a few posts above, an ej251 is basically bullet proof, Either the head gaskets go or rods bearings. I never do a compression test or a leak down test on a motor i heard run, and with this one being so low miles and accomplishing and hour drive home, there was no need. I pulled that motor in the middle bay of my garage, with a load leveler and an engine crane, I cannot count on my hands and toes how many times i have pulled a subaru motor, never had a problem. The motor was then lowered on to a 17inch tire which perfectly holds the oil pan off the ground. The motor was then moved to the right bay where it sat behind my lawn motor for id say no more than 2-3 weeks, i can confirm dates if i really need to. From the multiple post above, you can see many people have seen the motor run, this is only people that are on this forum, Others include one potential buyer, a friend that went to get the car with me, Three people that were at the house that i bought the car, My girlfriends dad, my girlfriend, and my self. If need be i can get written statements from ALL those people and have them notarized just so i have further proof that it ran.

Now this is where i would like to try to agree on some things here, if you agree just quote it and put agree, if not, put do not agree and we can further discuss it.

Do you agree that you found the motor on rs25?

Do you agree that you asked me to hold the motor for you?

Do you agree that you gave me a 200.00 deposit on a running ej251 that you asked for no pictures of?

Do you agree you arrived at my house mid afternoon tuesday the 13th?

Do you agree that i was friendly and the situation at the house was positive?

Do you agree that i have a 3 bay garage with ample storage space?

Do you agree that i mentioned i was cleaning the garage that day and dragged the motor out of the right bay so i could work in the garage?

Do you agree that the weather was overcast and i mentioned i was worried about rain?

Do you agree that you had ample time to review the motor?

Do you agree that besides looking at the motor you did nothing else to ensure its condition?

Do you agree that i mentioned we had a snake problem in the garage and i told a story where a snake lives in the garage?
Do you agree that before leaving the house there was no warrantee, guarantee, scouts honor, or return policy on the motor?

Do you agree that a snake found Under the intake manifold was no inside the motor?

Do you agree that a small gardersnake can not cause any harm to a metal motor?

Do you agree that you dropped the car off to procom that same day? If not which day?

Do you agree that you are not 100% clear on how to run a compression test?

Do you agree that you are not 100% clear on how to run a leak down test?

Do you agree that you contacted me the following week, and i answered in a kind and polite manner?

Do you agree that i gave advice and insured you that the motor ran?

Do you agree that i have maintained contact through the whole situation, other than when you changed your story for the 4th time and i asked do not contact me further?

Do you agree we remade contact on rs25?

Do you agree that you have done no further investigating of the motor other than the leak down test and compression test at procom?

Do you agree that you have multiple motors?

Do you agree that you left the motor you bought from me out side?

Do you agree that when returning an item to a store or other establishment the item should be in the same condition that it was in when bought?

Do you agree that leaving a motor out side can harm it?

Do you agree that if i posted in my for sale thread that i like to keep my motors out side in the grass you would avoid doing business with me?

Do you agree that you now want a refund for a motor that was left outside and would not be returned in the condition it was bought in, because there could be un seen damages to the inner workings of the motor?
 

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99 rustbox
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While my post adds nothing to the motor discussion Im going to write it anyways. Bought many random things at Pat's house when I went down there a year ago. He has a legit garage and stuff is not left outside to rot away. Also just bought spats and they were shipped the very next day. Packaged great, and nothing wrong with them. Honesty is Pat's first priority it is evident when he buys and sells things. Just want to say thanks to Pat for the random stuff he has sold me! :cool: There is a reason he has a trader rating of 44
 
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